Inventing & Funding Stretchable Wearable Sensors with Dr. Sabrina Curtis

Dr. Sabrina M. Curtis is the founder and CTO of the company Khanjur R&D.

Sabrina earned her bi-national double doctorate degrees between the Faculty of Engineering at Kiel University (Germany) and the department of Materials Science and Engineering at the University of Maryland (USA). The primary focus of her doctoral research was to functionalize thin-film nickel titanium-based super elastic and shape memory alloy materials into novel applications including magnetoelectric sensors, stretchable electronics, and bi-stable actuators.

She started a material science Outreach and Education program through Khanjur, 
published numerous research papers and patents, won an NSF Fellowship to fund double doctorate degree, earned a Master's Degree at the Army Research Lab and 
invented a stretchable solar cell in undergraduate degree at University of Maryland.

If you are ready to protect your mental bandwidth, sharpen your leadership skills, and build a network that actually moves the needle, visit innovatewithcoachl.thrivecart.com/founders-and-leaders-book-club/ to claim your seat.

Additional details at www.LaKishaGreenwade.com. Let's open the right doors for each other.

Transcript

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00:02.46
wearabletakeover
Hello folks we are in season 3 of wearable takeover and I guess I could call this part two because you know we had an episode after our global hackathon. And we have a cadre of founders that are lined up to close out the calendar year of 2023 incredibly strong and I'm super excited about this founder that we're gonna speak with today. Not only is she highly intelligent. Ah, she is changing the game on developing new materials to bring to the marketplace and she's changing the game on the investment process and folks I actually met her in Maryland as a part of a Marilyn Icor instructor and um. Ambassador team and she was incredibly impressive just off the cuff meeting her and I'm really excited to work with her in a near future and I hope that you find some nuggets that you can apply to your particular journey or find some ways to to connect with her in the first in the near future. But I have. To share a little bit about our special guest of today. Dr. Sabrina Curtis is the founder and cto of the company conjure r and d now let me tell you folks, she's not normal. She's not average. She earned her by national double doctorate degree.

01:28.34
wearabletakeover
Yeah I said double doctorate degrees between the faculty of engineering at Keel University in Germany and the department of material science and engineering at the University Of Maryland in the Usa. So the primary focus of her doctoral research was to functionalize Thinfilm Nickel titanium-based super elastic and shape memory alloy materials into novel applications including u o magnetic electric magnetic electric sensors stretchable electronics and bistable actuators. Okay folks you see all that it's a tongue twister there.

02:04.18
Sabrina Curtis
Message with it.

02:06.77
wearabletakeover
She's going to break all this stuff down for us, but let me take it back to how she started. She upturned her bachelor. She obtained her bachelor's of science and masters of science in material science and engineering from the University Of Maryland in the spring of 2017 and 2018 respectively and then she was awarded the prestigious. national science foundation graduate research fellowship to fund her doctoral studies and then she based her master's um, thesis research focused on stretchable ah silicone electronics. So this was done ah between 2016 and 2018 with the us army research laboratory you know what folks Um I just said a mouthful. She's gonna have to help us with all this stuff. But for those of you that may follow us on linkedin. You may have seen a video and you may have seen me playing with some of the materials that Dr. sabrina curtis um had put together but let's give a virtual round of applause to Dr. sabrina we are so happy you are here with us today. All right? So I just said a mouthful but for those that may be listening some folks that are in engineering they're like okay we get that. Break it down to us like a kindergartner or a fifth grader you choose which level break it down to us what I just said.

03:23.99
Sabrina Curtis
Yeah, first just let me thank you by for the really nice introduction to my research and my background. It's really great to have met you and join the where a full tech ventures community. So really happy.

03:36.47
wearabletakeover
Thank you, You're you're so amazing. You're you have so much grace and you're incredibly impressive. Not only on paper but in person just I Really appreciate the human side of you.

03:48.45
Sabrina Curtis
Well thank you Lakeishia I feel the same about you is so why that it goes both ways you.

03:57.28
wearabletakeover
Ah, all right? So Let's tell these folks what it is that you're doing okay because I just gave them a whole lot of terminology and it could go a lot of different ways and so if you can't in a sentence. Tell em what it is that you do and then we'll break it down from there.

04:10.40
Sabrina Curtis
Yeah I guess the best way to describe describe myself. These days is I'm a startup company founder and I've been putting myself through business boot camp to learn everything. It takes to run a business That's not the engineering side. But on the engineering side. What I developed in grad school over the last six years are Brand New Methods brand new materials that essentially allow you to make small micro miniaturized devices in new ways that currently don't exist to the market. So now you can think about anywhere these materials used to exist in the market I now offer a new solution to produce those materials.

04:48.73
wearabletakeover
I love it how you simplified that and let me tell you kudos to you because I don't know many founders that could simplify their research and make it applicable to an everyday person. So kudos to you and I'm super excited because most recently there's been a number of announcements.

05:02.38
Sabrina Curtis
Um.

05:07.64
wearabletakeover
You know with the international fashion weeks and people have been sending me clippings online clippings because they've been seeing Ai and wearables on the main stage and they're saying look you we finally understand what you're talking about after all these years because we see Naomi Campbell just brought it to the forefront.

05:15.40
Sabrina Curtis
I have.

05:24.85
wearabletakeover
So tell us about how your miniature devices. How would they function? Um, and how would they help people if they ever have the opportunity to interact with it.

05:31.45
Sabrina Curtis
Yeah, so maybe I should give it in the context of the wearable electronics since that's what this podcast community probably loves and I want to kind of roll it back to my time at the army research lab because they're some of the first people that actually brought all of this wearable electronics. Like r and d to fruition. So I would say the research started twenty years ago trying to develop flexible electronics ways that you can really put bend into materials and then about six years ago they hired me to work on stretchable electronics.

05:52.18
wearabletakeover
Yes.

06:06.99
Sabrina Curtis
Have you heard of the term stretchable electronics before.

06:08.56
wearabletakeover
Yes, yes, and I think I was sharing some of that online and so to our folks that may be listening. Did you know electronics can stretch. Okay, let's talk about that. What what does that mean and what does that look like it.

06:19.19
Sabrina Curtis
Um, yeah, right.

06:23.98
wearabletakeover
Because I know some folks they may be saying okay this is new or I didn't know that could happen and is it washable or how do I apply it or how do I get it.

06:30.53
Sabrina Curtis
Exactly and so when they hired me on the project. They said you know the material silicon that goes in the solar cells on the roof of your house that are super Fragile. You're going to make that stretchable and it sounds completely Contradictory. You're like that doesn't make sense. You can't do that that breaks the physics of the material and that's how I felt Anyways, you know it's really daunting when you first enter the field and you just get that fire hydrant of information.

06:58.31
wearabletakeover
Oh my goodness. Yes.

07:00.90
Sabrina Curtis
But right, but then when you break down what that really means and what the field of stretchable electronics has really discovered is they found a way to just use fancy geometries. To trick materials into giving you the mechanical properties that you want the material to have so.

07:19.90
wearabletakeover
I Love it. So how small can we expect this material to be in the future that we'll work with based off of your discovery and research.

07:29.85
Sabrina Curtis
Oh my gosh that it's as small as we can conceptualize. So yeah, right now like get the thickness of a human hair. For example, it's about a hundred microns

07:38.31
wearabletakeover
That's amazing.

07:45.45
Sabrina Curtis
And then the technology that myself my colleagues in grad school were working on that could do actuators or transistors that would be used in all of these next stage you know, miniaturized devices they're on the nanometers nanoometer scale and like I'm talking a couple hundred nanometers at most.

08:04.59
wearabletakeover
That's amazing. All right? So let's put this in context to the person that may be saying hey I like to buy new technology that's on the market right? And so I know you're at the very early stages of developing these properties that ultimately can be commercialized. Let's help our.

08:05.45
Sabrina Curtis
Yeah.

08:12.51
Sabrina Curtis
Um, meaning.

08:21.71
wearabletakeover
Community Visualize What might this look like you know if they're buying something off the shelf. What? what? might it look like or what might it be or or how would it enhance something that they already may have.

08:31.45
Sabrina Curtis
I would say there's kind of 2 major routes that we should think about when it comes to wearable electronics and one will be that consumer electronics that we're used to seeing already like the cool Apple smartwatches. But they're going to become instead of Apple smart watchtes Apple smart tattoos where you can just go get your thin film sticker patched and you peel it off and you're like okay, my tattoo sensor is now on for the day right.

08:51.41
wearabletakeover
Yeah.

08:59.78
wearabletakeover
I Love it.

09:01.30
Sabrina Curtis
But then the other side of that will be really healthcare. So that's where the doctors will be able to start making revolutionary improvements in medical advances when they can really untether their patient. They can essentially integrate now electronics. To do functional things like monitor their vital signs monitor their physical behavior and then now imagine when you can send grandpa home and he doesn't have to drive 2 hours to the doctor for his medical treatments because the doctor already knows the vital signs.

09:32.22
wearabletakeover
I Love it and thank you for putting that into context because that's what people need I know years ago when we start at wearable tech ventures or transition into this particular name we were sharing a lot of the l'real. Ah wearable tattoos that were available and some of the detections that they use for our skin cancer.

09:38.50
Sabrina Curtis
And good.

09:49.55
wearabletakeover
And we have a number of founders that we work with in the medical space that I think there's a lot of opportunity for collaboration with you as they are further developing their products and I think that's one of the beautiful things about this ecosystem is that. Pretty much the talent and and the information and the intellect that you need is all right here. It is all right here. So We just got to do like that matchmaking piece for all of you. But I think that is absolutely Amazing. So is there a pathway of preference for you because you already explained that.

10:05.69
Sabrina Curtis
Are exactly.

10:24.56
wearabletakeover
There's a couple of different ways that these stretchable electronics can be used. Do you have a preference or is there a um, a milestone or a mile marker where you're like this is where I want to put my flag in it's going to say Dr Sybrina Curtis did that.

10:39.84
Sabrina Curtis
That's a really interesting question you know because for myself I would say I'm not a typical startup company where most people have 1 major product or 1 product idea or they say this is where I'm going to place that flag right.

10:55.32
wearabletakeover
This is.

10:57.14
Sabrina Curtis
And then for myself I want to place maybe 100 smaller flags as opposed to a 1 big flag where my whole business model is I can offer the services that will help other people make their products better so help them pick the right materials the right geometries.

11:02.38
wearabletakeover
I Love it.

11:14.76
Sabrina Curtis
Right? Configuration of all of those components and then by having the underlying knowledge of the material selection I would rather see a hundred products make it to the market. Even if it's not really my flag that was the major stamp of that.

11:29.72
wearabletakeover
I love it. So we're positioning more so your company more so like an internal supplier. Um and we have another company that um, acts that way as well. That is out of Sweden so this is exciting. You know for our ecosystem that we again.

11:41.34
Sabrina Curtis
Um, oh.

11:45.10
wearabletakeover
Um, so I wanted to to go through all that Dr Sabrina on purpose because we want to give a picture as to what it is that is housed here and how we can all work together. So do you foresee and you may not know this I'm just putting this out there. Do you foresee this model of.

11:45.36
Sabrina Curtis
But.

12:02.19
wearabletakeover
Um, incorporating your technology into other products. Do you see this as a licensing model or something else.

12:06.68
Sabrina Curtis
Yeah, definitely see it as a licensing model as the end goal for myself personally and for growth of the business so that way eventually it could be a conjure empire instead of just me right? well.

12:20.33
wearabletakeover
I love it I love it. Okay, so let's take it back to Dr Sabrina at 5 years old did Dr Sabrina know that she was going to become this amazing researcher pursuing a double doctorate that's fully funded and.

12:25.44
Sabrina Curtis
When.

12:37.47
wearabletakeover
Um, you know applying her knowledge to multiple revolutionary products that's going to come to the market did did Dr Sabrina know that it buy.

12:43.59
Sabrina Curtis
No, definitely not 5 years old but what's interesting is my and she actually helped me really get the company started and off the ground for the last year and she was a nurse and so she would come home.

12:55.55
wearabletakeover
Wow.

12:59.90
Sabrina Curtis
And do the most wacky things with us as kids like hey guys I brought home a sheep partt or a cow heartt. We're gonna dissect it on the kitchen table right? and we're like okay you know that's just normal for eight year olds back at our house and so then for a while's like oh I'm gonna be a heart surgeon I'm gonna be a medical doctor but then like. It was just gross to touch it I was like never mind that's not going to be for me and then eventually you know it's interesting to come back to the full circle where I'm still now able having to have that chance to do work with medical technology and be able to work on devices that can go in the heart. And I didn't necessarily have to go to med school and touch a bunch of hearts to do that.

13:40.17
wearabletakeover
I love it. So it's you know how people say oh I'm a doctor on Tv you can say I'm a doctor in technology but I just didn't go to medical school I think I think that's the new phrase. We're gonna have here. You know I love that you are an outstanding women.

13:49.96
Sabrina Curtis
Um, please.

13:56.70
wearabletakeover
A woman excuse me, you're an outstanding woman in Stem you're an outstanding woman in innovation and you mentioned that in a sense you had a role model via your aunt who is a nurse who helped you with your company but provided that additional exposure.

14:02.49
Sabrina Curtis
Um.

14:13.90
wearabletakeover
How has her example impacted you to the point where you want to impact future generations and be that role model or similar role model.

14:21.50
Sabrina Curtis
I would say it's significantly impacted me my entire life and you know when you're a kid. You don't really give your family members the credit they deserve because you're a punk but like look man I'm just saying.

14:38.39
wearabletakeover
Ah, that's just that's just my family. No big deal.

14:40.26
Sabrina Curtis
But exactly but like I really look in hindsight and out of all of my family members like mom dad like cousins aunts and uncle. She's really the only person that was in my close network of people that was in stem.

14:54.63
wearabletakeover
And.

14:56.34
Sabrina Curtis
And so I find that really important I think that just having those experiences even if I didn't think they're related to my path. She really introduced me to those kind of topics and really like made me think in a certain mindset and she also was a business owner when I was in high school too.

15:02.83
wearabletakeover
The him.

15:12.51
wearabletakeover
I have.

15:13.81
Sabrina Curtis
So I watched her go through all of these challenges I'm going through now without realizing Really what she's going through because again, you're a punk kid you.

15:23.79
wearabletakeover
I Love it. So it it speaks to the impact of having a female mentor or a female example in Stem and I'm incredibly honored that at warble tech ventures as we prepare to introduce our new class of founder ambassadors and those that we work with. Ah, we have amazing models. Amazing role models that are females in stem and so it matters it matters it matters you know having that example and having you know people helping to input along the way. Okay, so.

15:50.89
Sabrina Curtis
And total was.

16:01.95
wearabletakeover
You know at 5 you didn't know that's what you were going to do but help us understand how you chose Germany as a place to pursue one of your doctorate degrees.

16:13.16
Sabrina Curtis
Um, you know I want to ask you if you ever have those moments from the universe where they just like drop everything right in front of you like the right piece of information the right person the right time and it just feels like everything has to be so you just go with it.

16:19.32
wearabletakeover
Um.

16:27.83
wearabletakeover
Yes, that's how I was serendipity right.

16:31.50
Sabrina Curtis
Yeah, exactly because what happened was the professor I worked for in Germany he was really good friends with my Maryland professor he came to Maryland gave guest lectures for two weeks and then you know back to me again being the punk.

16:39.12
wearabletakeover
Okay.

16:47.38
Sabrina Curtis
Punk Now undergrad no longer a kid and so I'm like working for the Army lab completely ignoring his lecture like and then I'm reading a research paper and then he just says something that catches my attention which is.

16:49.53
wearabletakeover
Ah, oh my gosh.

17:02.63
Sabrina Curtis
This material can cycle 10000000 times without any change in its mechanical thermal chemical properties and I was like wait it it repeats.

17:09.29
wearabletakeover
Wow.

17:16.96
Sabrina Curtis
And then he repeated it and he told me really this material. It can strain and cite stress and strain repeatedly with no change in its properties 10000000 times and it can really achieve impressive strains and the material is shape memory alloy. So I quickly started paying attention immediately and read up on this and went to him and I was like wow this material exists this is crazy. Is there any way it can be used for these wearable electronics applications I'm already studying. He's like yeah, definitely do you want to come do a ph d on the topic. And I was like yeah yes and he's like okay when do you want to come and almost like when do I apply and he's like you just come when you want so that's how I ended up in Germany it was just that easy I was like this is a cool idea. He's like I agree you should come and do that.

18:10.31
wearabletakeover
That is amazing That is amazing. So when are you slated to finish your your double doctorate program.

18:11.24
Sabrina Curtis
Yeah.

18:16.37
Sabrina Curtis
The I already have the ph d from university of Maryland and then for the doctor of engineering it will be It's one of those things that it's a formality. It's finished. The thesis is done. The reviews are done I got a magna cum laude at the oral defense. Thank you the second hire.

18:36.69
wearabletakeover
Congrats I Told you she's impressive folks I Told you.

18:42.40
Sabrina Curtis
But it is a 1.0 for any german listeners out there. Um it at this point you know this is where the funny side of me comes in because I've always been a low income student and everybody makes fun of me for getting my student discounts.

19:00.24
wearabletakeover
Ah, you pay for that you put in that work. You get it.

19:01.22
Sabrina Curtis
Exactly because like the student discounts when you're a startup company versus a grad student. It's like a hundred dollars or a thousand dollars to attend the thing so I'm still a student. Yeah.

19:13.82
wearabletakeover
absolutely absolutely absolutely I love it definitely definitely partake in that. So do you travel to Germany at all right now or do you foresee that there might be some increased. Ah.

19:18.62
Sabrina Curtis
We have. It. But nope actually it's almost my one year anniversary of living back home stateside so I wrapped up everything in Germany about one year ago but actually now our first clients they are actually a german automotive manufacturer.

19:29.27
wearabletakeover
Presence there.

19:34.54
wearabletakeover
Okay, okay.

19:46.94
Sabrina Curtis
So I hope that there's a chance to go to Germany in the future. Maybe do some experiments with the clients instead about the university.

19:55.22
wearabletakeover
Okay I love it I love it I can tell you we've been working on some things as well for you founders in Europe so um, depending on what happens with the economy at 2024 maybe we'll be able to realize that altogether but let's talk.

20:07.88
Sabrina Curtis
Um.

20:08.53
wearabletakeover
About food and fashion come on. Let's let's take it back a little bit and bring it back to the human side here. So what would be your top rated food in Germany and what's the style like over there.

20:20.58
Sabrina Curtis
Oh the style you can see back here I got this cute little pink peco. That's the style. You know you have to have nice boots. Nice jacket. Everybody can pull off the hat I was that was never really for me.

20:34.50
wearabletakeover
Okay, okay, okay.

20:38.35
Sabrina Curtis
And then the food hands down schnitzel I mean you can't go wrong with authentic schnitzel and then some one potatoes any of the variations like they have 18 different ways that they standardly will prepare potatoes at a restaurant. Yeah.

20:54.68
wearabletakeover
Ah I love it. So come up from an Army Brett who was in Germany although I was too young to remember it. My family brought many souvenirs back here to the states and so ah Dr. Sabrina and I are both in Maryland and for those of you.

21:02.79
Sabrina Curtis
Women.

21:09.65
wearabletakeover
That may be thinking hey I want to get that taste to Germany without going there come on to Maryland because right around a holiday season. There's a big german festival specifically in Baltimore at the waterfront so you could partake in that and just ah, knock on. Ah, Dr. Sabrina's door virtually and ask her for her best recommendations and take a picture and share.

21:31.94
Sabrina Curtis
Ah, that's so cool that exist I'll definitely be there this winter we should go have some gluvin.

21:38.55
wearabletakeover
Absolutely, it's it's I think it's been here for ah Lisa 2 years Two Or three years so definitely be something kind of cool to bring some folks up here and just get together.

21:42.41
Sabrina Curtis
Hello there.

21:49.28
Sabrina Curtis
Now.

21:50.71
wearabletakeover
1 of the things like a wearable tech vision. We take off in December as well as in June so I think it would be kind of cool to get everybody just ah socialized or at least before ah enough part take in that. Okay, so that's that's absolutely amazing. What you're doing there. So now we know that you're.

21:56.81
Sabrina Curtis
Yeah, yeah.

22:09.80
wearabletakeover
For the most part working on your business and so let's let's talk about being um, few in number because when we look at the stats of women in engineering when we look at the stats of women in deep tech.

22:17.90
Sabrina Curtis
Um, clean.

22:27.59
wearabletakeover
Companies are leading deep tech companies and then women obtaining doctoral degrees in Stem Um, and then we talk about women receiving funding or significant funding right.

22:35.60
Sabrina Curtis
Um, this stroke.

22:43.84
wearabletakeover
You're looking at about 2% or less. You know when you look at all of those categories together. So how have you been able to be successful and stay focused being one of few um in so many different.

22:47.90
Sabrina Curtis
William.

23:01.23
wearabletakeover
Um, cycles of your life at the same time.

23:04.80
Sabrina Curtis
Um, yeah, that's such an interesting like way to point it out like how narrow the box keeps going because like exactly. Ah.

23:15.16
wearabletakeover
But and I'm being generous when I say 2%

23:21.40
Sabrina Curtis
Because you know this used to really bother me, especially when I started at the Army research lab where since I work with the little micro electronics. You have to put on the entire white laboratory suit head to toe where the only thing that's exposed are your eyes and then I go and I.

23:25.51
wearabletakeover
And me.

23:35.23
wearabletakeover
He asked.

23:38.19
Sabrina Curtis
Added up all of the men and women who were allowed to use that laboratory and there was 3 out of like 110 that were women yep 3 and then in our like.

23:43.63
wearabletakeover
Wow 3 wow wow.

23:51.69
Sabrina Curtis
Branch in our division. The only minorities and women just happen to be student interns. There was like no full-time staff that we're representative of our group and then like you know as soon as there's budget cuts Oh Goodbye students right? Um, exactly.

24:04.71
wearabletakeover
Wow So diversity out the door.

24:10.24
Sabrina Curtis
But then I think that I kind of forgot about this problem for all of my ph d for the last five years while I was in Germany because unlike the Usa they have it figured out in terms of how to provide proper funding to universities for long-term ph ds.

24:17.48
wearabletakeover
Is it.

24:28.48
Sabrina Curtis
How to ensure that there's gender diversity and inclusion how to make sure that people aren't bankrupt to go do a Ph D that they can actually live their lives have health insurance and you know have a little bit of vacation on the side. What.

24:42.88
wearabletakeover
Ah.

24:43.10
Sabrina Curtis
My research group was fifty fifty for the men women ratio even though as you pointed out in my type of field. It's 2 out of 100 so it's nice that in our research group. That's a really narrow deep tag micro electronics yada ya we had a lot of representation.

24:45.60
wearabletakeover
Wow.

25:00.17
wearabletakeover
That's amazing. So Europe definitely has um europe overall I'll just say that even though you are focused on Germany seems to have it kind of figured out from that perspective for our listeners because we have a number of folks that are currently in there.

25:06.96
Sabrina Curtis
Feed me.

25:17.58
wearabletakeover
Doctoral program trying to Finish. We have folks that are navigating the research scene you know with partnerships that we have such as with the national institutes of Health What advice would you give those in our ecosystem as far as. Seeking support and mentorship.

25:34.31
Sabrina Curtis
Yeah, if you know this is a problem. It's not a secret that a lot of times in the ph d world you have supervisors that get soup that are absent. They get busy. They have their own. Priorities that they have to worry about and so I always recommend to people if you don't already have like a go to mentor. You need to go find 1 and you can find that just by clicking with somebody who has similar research interests as you.

26:00.15
wearabletakeover
Pen.

26:06.76
Sabrina Curtis
Because honestly in the research world. It can be really lonely and the moment that lakeishia wants to talk about stretchable electronics I Want to talk for an hour. You know what I mean. So.

26:17.92
wearabletakeover
Um I love it I Love it. So so find someone in your similar research field. What else would you add to that.

26:24.33
Sabrina Curtis
And I would say that never be afraid to approach people. You know I've recently been surveying people for a grant initiative that I'm working on on the side. And I would ask them. Did you have somebody in your career path that directly mentored you and helps kind of guide you to stem and they all said yes and it's would you be willing to mentor a stranger or a high school student. Do You think you could really impact them and the answer is also yes. So you know people in the Zions world. Most of us will say yes and if somebody tells you no, they don't want to mentor you you dodged a bullet.

27:00.12
wearabletakeover
Absolutely absolutely and that's that's a wonderful attribute that like as you mentioned many folks in stem do have and 1 of the things that we've been building out here as far as mentoring not only internally.

27:15.50
Sabrina Curtis
Me yeah, and can just to add 1 more thing. It's an unfortunate reality but it really.

27:15.90
wearabletakeover
Amongst those within the ecosystem but also in the upcoming youth and developing talent. So that's incredibly helpful all right? So oh yes.

27:28.95
Sabrina Curtis
Is so helpful in my own career and for so many others that sometimes define that mentor it comes in the form of an unpaid internship where you apprentice under them and you really will gain so much experience and having that lifelong go to person that you just can't be. You know you. Even though it's unpaid.

27:49.10
wearabletakeover
I like to tell folks to and this is something I mentioned when I was one of the speakers for commencement at University Of Maryland and I encourage students to recognize and seize opportunities and nothing in life is ever going to be 100% perfect

28:02.60
Sabrina Curtis
Moving.

28:08.39
wearabletakeover
Or if you get that moment squeeze it because it's going to shift ah mighty quickly. You know just because life happens. Um, but I think it's important for people to recognize that and also understand the beauty of access these days. Yes, there's a lot of emphasis. There's a lot of hype if you will.

28:10.78
Sabrina Curtis
Yes.

28:25.80
wearabletakeover
Especially in the dmb area for those of you that may be saying was she talking about Dmb Dc Maryland Virginia that we say dmmb in this area. There's a growing ecosystem. You know for tech and innovation and some investment as well. However, access is not always easily granted. People have you know their markers and ways that they know who to let go who to say you know go past that and collect two hundred X Y Z so understand when you have access to really take it. Shine.

28:49.70
Sabrina Curtis
Um, and if.

29:00.85
Sabrina Curtis
Um, you.

29:01.97
wearabletakeover
Um, and build on it and at the end of the day none of us have it all figured out because in innovation things change all the time. So if you can stay humble and learn. Um, you will definitely go far. So thank you so much for for saying that because that just goes a long way everywhere. Okay, so ah so let's kind of talk about the you you touched on it a little bit as far as what the atmosphere was like in in the Army Research lab um, can you talk.

29:19.79
Sabrina Curtis
Um, yeah, you're so right.

29:35.50
wearabletakeover
Some of our folks that may be saying hey I have this idea or I want to pursue research and perhaps they may want to be affiliated with ah or align their id ideation with Dod right? or Dod research.

29:47.79
Sabrina Curtis
New lady.

29:51.91
wearabletakeover
Do you have any suggestions and the reason I'm asking I is to get your perspective having done it but also will be announcing some resources that we have here at orable take interest we're being up on the Dod side to assist everybody.

30:02.16
Sabrina Curtis
Yeah, so to you know there's 2 ways to look at the department of defense where they have you know their scary applications that are behind the closed doors. And then they have the general applications that are for the army or the Navy's needs and so whenever I'm hesitant about like going down the rabbit hole of my material like oh what? if it's used for a weapon people remind me, we're the department of defense not offense. Um.

30:17.21
wearabletakeover
Um, that's.

30:33.23
wearabletakeover
I have.

30:36.66
Sabrina Curtis
But then to really get you know if you are looking to take your project truly that next step once you've already gone through your own internal process. My materials work. My device has a market fit. It has a production fit and it has a military foot. I would really suggest them to start reaching out to any 1 of the department of defense laboratories that exist in our country. There are things that are called creata agreements these are cooperative research agreements. That are usually initiated by the internal collaborator of the of the Dod agency and essentially they say hey this startup company has super cool technology that probably could benefit the department of defense. And then it basically opens up the door for you and your company to have access to some of those dod resources and so again in that case it almost is the business equivalent of an unpaid internship. They don't give me any money. They don't give me any materials. No supplies. Barely any man personnel time but they say here is the laboratory you can go play. Don't break it. So.

31:49.11
wearabletakeover
Okay, okay, very cool, very cool I think that's helpful and thank you for sharing that So kind of shifting into your research as well as to some of your patents. Let's start with the research so where have.

32:04.47
Sabrina Curtis
Um, and.

32:09.10
wearabletakeover
Um, where's your research been published where can folks find you to to learn a little bit more about your work.

32:14.81
Sabrina Curtis
Ah, easiest way to learn about anybody's research work is just go to scholar.google.com type in my name sybrina m Curtis I should be the first one that pops up and you'll see all of my papers my patent there as well as on my company website.

32:24.39
wearabletakeover
I Love it.

32:31.56
Sabrina Curtis
W Wwww dot Condry Dot com.

32:32.79
wearabletakeover
I Love it I Love it I Love it I don't know if somebody else was referring to that site as well. But I love how some of these tips keep reoccurring in these episodes of of where to access certain things all right? So let's talk.

32:48.30
Sabrina Curtis
Um, yeah.

32:49.47
wearabletakeover
Patents because we have a strong relationship with the uspto for those of you that may be saying hey you'rere you're dropping all these letters and acronyms what does that mean if you it is if this is your first time listening to the wordable takeover podcast uspto stands for the United States patent trademark office so ah Sabrina tell us a little bit about your patent journey and where you're going with it.

33:15.67
Sabrina Curtis
Yeah, so patent Journey is one that's self-taught because that's not part of your engineering curriculum at a University Um, and it's so interesting to like really see the patent process from the uspto start to finish.

33:30.86
wearabletakeover
In green.

33:32.29
Sabrina Curtis
Where we had our device idea conception for the first idea back in 2016 and it was an idea to take those solar cells that are on your roof and then apply the stretchable electronics methods to make stretchy solar cells. Um, and then.

33:45.54
wearabletakeover
Wow.

33:49.14
Sabrina Curtis
We filed on the invention in 2017 or 2018 the patent provisional process to the nonprovisional process eventually posted on Google patents somehow were somewhere in 2020 so like two or three years later people can finally go look it up.

34:05.48
wearabletakeover
Well.

34:06.88
Sabrina Curtis
Um, and then after that now we're in almost the last office action item which means in the pto world that are the uspto world. It's your review stage with the patent examiner and we've done that 4 times.

34:22.79
wearabletakeover
Wow.

34:24.15
Sabrina Curtis
And so now on the fifth time we are hopeful that we finally will have a patent that comes out of this.

34:32.55
wearabletakeover
Wow! So you're talking about all these different times where you had to go back and go through the process can you give our um, our listeners and our viewers and an idea of a timeframe. What did this look like from a calendar perspective.

34:35.30
Sabrina Curtis
Resume.

34:44.36
Sabrina Curtis
Yeah, from start to finish. It's 5 years of back and forth with your lawyer and in this case I was fortunate enough that the us army was paying for the lawyer who did all of these ip filings. Awesome guy Eric if you're listening and and like Eric thanks to him. He really taught me every single step along the way what he was doing why he's doing it. Why he's refuting this.

35:03.68
wearabletakeover
Ah, thanks Eric. Ah.

35:15.22
Sabrina Curtis
What this means from the pto to really teach me that gruesome process so that way with my startup company I can go be my own lawyer for as far as I can get right? Um, but.

35:18.39
wearabletakeover
Me.

35:24.50
wearabletakeover
I Love it.

35:27.58
Sabrina Curtis
Now when you think about how much time I spent interfacing with Eric to get through the 5 years and then the 4 office action items. It would probably be easily like 200 hours of work I feel of like or more of man time that Eric had has spent like.

35:43.10
wearabletakeover
Swam.

35:46.59
Sabrina Curtis
On the phone with me on Zoom with me corresponding with me doing all of the reviews and you know action items himself and now as a startup owner hiring my intellectual property lawyers the cheapest 1 you can find out there for patent law that's decent and knows what they're doing. Still like 4 to five hundred bucks so you're looking at five hundred bucks times 200 hours it starts to get pretty pricey to file one patent application and then I should mention I have to do that on repeat 2 or 3 more times. But now these next ones are on my budget not on army lab budget.

36:25.17
wearabletakeover
Right? And so I know you and I have had discussions as well as some other founders in similar shoes. We've discussed some ways that we can kind of hack the system in a positive way because it is in certain cases. It can be a barrier.

36:39.96
Sabrina Curtis
And with.

36:42.90
wearabletakeover
And we want to make sure that you are properly credited for your contribution to the world and I know that that's a major concern or something that will be announcing again shortly I'll probably have to tell you offline because it isn't solidified yet. But if you are.

36:46.28
Sabrina Curtis
With him.

36:53.99
Sabrina Curtis
Meet.

37:00.70
Sabrina Curtis
Me.

37:00.79
wearabletakeover
Um, signed up for the mailing list on wearabletechbntures.org you'll probably be 1 of the first people to know what it is that I'm alluding to so.

37:04.66
Sabrina Curtis
Who looking for who is me what it is.

37:12.16
wearabletakeover
Ah, So thanks here you signed up for that. Okay, so so I love it. So Do you have any tips for anyone that may be in a doctoral program or maybe even not even tips for those folks tips for us like folks that support. Founders and researchers like you that um may be um, you know navigating that patent process is there something that you want to share with us or to folks that are similar to you as far as hey this could be better or we need help here.

37:45.98
Sabrina Curtis
Well, you know I just had this thought while you were talking that what we need to do is normalize paying research scientists the same wages we pay lawyers. You know.

37:57.87
wearabletakeover
I.

38:00.49
Sabrina Curtis
They go to law school for 3 years and get this very specialized skill that nobody else has that nobody else can do to justify their 400 to a thousand dollars app an hour wages if you want to support founders that are in my position.

38:09.60
wearabletakeover
In here.

38:15.27
Sabrina Curtis
Pay us those kind of wages because we had to also go through the pain and suffering of grad school right? and and then the other way you're supporting founders is don't ask them for a discount on the first project study I mean especially to you multimillion and billion dollar corporations out there.

38:22.95
wearabletakeover
That's really neat.

38:35.20
Sabrina Curtis
I'm a little insulted when I was asked for a discount on numerous occasions from people that really are revenueing like millions in the each year right? It really did twice.

38:43.22
wearabletakeover
That really happened. Okay, okay.

38:49.55
Sabrina Curtis
And I'm like is this a game. Do. We test me to see how much the founder is willing to put up with how much B s like I have to dance around right to get things closed. And then like it really makes me wonder like is is it a game or is this just like the way things are that people will just see what you're willing to accept in the beginning.

39:09.86
wearabletakeover
So I think that's a key word there or key term or phrase if I could share that is know your worth and it's so funny because I was sharing this when I was representing wearable tech ventures at another training program with fellow ecosystem leaders. And we're in this phase as we're closing out the year where we're really encouraging everyone to know their worth and to ask for what it is that you want and um, Dr Sprina I appreciate you bringing that to light. First of all I apologize that that even happened.

39:36.44
Sabrina Curtis
Um, from.

39:44.15
wearabletakeover
Considering we know what it's like being women and understanding that there's already a wage gap right? then to encounter these scenarios where you're asked for a discount and it seems egregious from this standpoint. So. Thank you for shedding that light and for advocating and I think that this helps us to understand some other nuances that may be there that often aren't discussed because the focus is on maybe another Arena but definitely something that we could say hey.

40:16.30
Sabrina Curtis
Um, yeah.

40:16.61
wearabletakeover
This this needs to be addressed because we don't want this to continue to happen and we want people to feel valued for what it is that they are doing and also bring it to the table you bring you bring a lot of value to the table. So.

40:25.19
Sabrina Curtis
Think that.

40:30.92
wearabletakeover
I know we were you know at first talking about you know how your research and application of your electronics can apply to wearables but are you able to share. Do you want to share or you could just pivot to something else in your answer as to. Other industries or ways that your research can be applied even outside of wearable technology.

40:50.56
Sabrina Curtis
Oh yeah, definitely So you know I would say wearable technology on like my level of complicated technology I would put it at the high end of the complicated technology spectrum.

41:04.36
wearabletakeover
Okay.

41:06.12
Sabrina Curtis
Where my material would be the fundamental substrate where this is an example of the material here in this polymer coding where essentially you would put all of the teeny tiny micro electronic devices. You need to do sensings or measurement or any kind of like.

41:14.89
wearabletakeover
Um.

41:23.67
Sabrina Curtis
Delivery of electricity to your wearable device. But then the challenging part becomes how do you co-integrate all of those components together onto the new substrate material and make sure everything works the way that they're supposed to.

41:37.60
wearabletakeover
And.

41:38.79
Sabrina Curtis
Um, so that's the wearable electronics medical and ah, also medical like implantable devices like that technology can be applied for devices outside or inside the body. Um, but now.

41:44.61
wearabletakeover
Me.

41:50.46
wearabletakeover
I Love it.

41:53.32
Sabrina Curtis
Move away from the research that takes millions of dollars multiple years. Lots of Fda testing before somebody's allowed to use it and we look at a more simple market with my material and those are just simply for actuators and actuators are things that will move. You know something with a decent amount of force a substantial distance and my material. It's actually one of the best materials known in the world for actuators where the material itself is the actuator. It can replace the whole cellennoid replace the whole like electrostatic.

42:23.19
wearabletakeover
How.

42:32.23
Sabrina Curtis
Stepper motor that previously existed. So yeah.

42:35.82
wearabletakeover
I love it. I love it. 1 of the best in the world. I absolutely love it. Okay Dr Sabriina this is um, your topic is loaded and I appreciate that you were agreeable to us breaking it down. On a kindergarten or fifth grader level for our listeners for this episode I definitely see an opportunity for us to come back and to scale it up for folks that may be more advanced but in the interim what I'd like to ask you before we close is for some ideas as to how.

42:59.23
Sabrina Curtis
And then.

43:09.72
wearabletakeover
Anyone that's listening that says hey I like Dr Sabrina I want to find a way to work with her. What is it that you need and I want you to think about that because I don't know if many folks have ever asked you that especially on a public platform but we are not here to take from you. We're here to add to you and that's why I'm asking this.

43:17.74
Sabrina Curtis
Um, no.

43:29.63
wearabletakeover
What is it that you need and how can any listener that is really enamored with you. How can they add value to your journey.

43:36.72
Sabrina Curtis
You know I want to pull like the Donald Trump line that I just need a small loan of $1000000 from somebody that.

43:51.74
wearabletakeover
Ah, make it rain. Ah.

43:55.94
Sabrina Curtis
Right? I mean like that's it. That's what it feels like I need because you know of course I can go find an investor out there and the problem that I have right now is I Just don't feel ready to give away like huge portions of equity to an investor.

44:10.45
wearabletakeover
Yes, yes.

44:13.74
Sabrina Curtis
And so that means that I have to bootstrap everything on my own. But what I really need is money to hire professional teammates to help me do these things. Where for example I just turned in a proposal today.

44:22.25
wearabletakeover
Yes.

44:28.45
Sabrina Curtis
And I had to be the business manager doing the executive summary and I had to be the director of R and D writing the technical proposal and I had to be the secretary looking over all of the application questions to make sure everything is perfect where in my opinion you can really you know.

44:40.94
wearabletakeover
Yeah, it's.

44:45.66
Sabrina Curtis
Make a lot of great strides if you have more people on your team and you distribute the work appropriately appropriately based on everybody's strengths. So.

44:54.36
wearabletakeover
So so some support team for those technical proposals funding proposals et Cetera right? is that what we hear.

45:03.53
Sabrina Curtis
Yeah, so to fund this I really am looking for like ah more instead of an investment looking to go maybe the loan route or an investment with a very small amount of equity that's more on the. You know the angel kind of side of investment. So not entirely sure the best way to go about that because the current path forward is I can do it on my own I might be 3 years before I make my manufacturing facility and save up enough money through projects I asked to do that on my own.

45:26.16
wearabletakeover
Who.

45:35.58
Sabrina Curtis
But with a little bit of help and somebody who wants to become be the new Ceo of my company and really be my business partner. Maybe we can speed that up to one and a half years right.

45:45.41
wearabletakeover
But what you know now we're talking more about your company conjure. Why don't you tell folks? what conjure is what is the vision and make sure people know how to reach you there as well.

45:57.60
Sabrina Curtis
Yep, so conjure is spelled khanjur and we're a new r and d startup company that is really based on bringing new products. To the market by providing our services to our customers and so our unique, our unique capabilities are really in the shape memory alloy materials but in thin film form. So think about materials that are thinner than a piece of paper for reference. Um, and then I would say like. Our vision is to really expand our research and development team to have more engineers that are trained in these novel manufacturing methods because it will allow us to start working on more product developments more contracts at the same time and we really need. Essentially a manufacturing space in the near future where we can start doing production of sma actuator components because we're pretty confident that we can actually produce those types of products on our own in-house to sell to customers. Whereas a medical device I would never want to produce that myself that gets sent away to a third party to deal with all the hassle.

47:11.68
wearabletakeover
Okay, so good. So good. Good highlighting all of that any words wisdom you want to share with our folks before we close out this episode.

47:14.70
Sabrina Curtis
1

47:22.21
Sabrina Curtis
Um I guess the main word of wisdom or advice I want to pass on to anybody that's younger out there like on that undergrad or master level. That's thought about doing a ph d wants to go to grad school but you know it's just too expensive to consider doing it in the Usa. Go to Germany go to Europe. It's really been the best. It was the best experience of my life and it was the best experience for my business as well. You know the only reason that I have clients that are from a german automotive engineering company. Is because they know that I'm familiar with how their culture is how they run research and development in their country and it also really has opened me up to international business. So if anybody gets the chance to go abroad like I can't recommend it enough.

48:10.50
wearabletakeover
I love it. Thank you so much. Dr. Sabrina Curtis folks you can find her at conjure.comkhanjur.com or connects with her on Linkedin I'm telling you she is thebomb.com in the best. Way possible I'm incredibly honored that you shared your time with us today and you have my commitment to do what we can to assist you in your journey, especially as we are developing some things for the future. Give it up for Dr Sabrina Curtis and folks stay tuned. But the next episode of wordable takeover as we prepare to close out season 3 thanks.